Exclusive Interview with Louis Picamoles

Fans of the popular online pokie game Rugby Star, this is for you!

Speaking to Jackpot City ahead of France’s tour of New Zealand, former France international Louis Picamoles previewed the series. He revealed his memories of a ‘mystical’ country to play in and why he believes France should have won the 2011 World Cup final.

Having played in France’s record World Cup defeat against the All Blacks in 2015, Picamoles also explained what has changed for his nation to get them back to competing against the very best teams in the world once more.

The former Montpellier, Toulouse, Northampton and Bordeaux player also explained his view on whether the Lions should play in France and offered his advice to Henry Pollock after an eye-catching breakthrough season.

What are your memories of playing against the All Blacks?

They are always incredible memories because the All Blacks remain the reference in world Rugby, and the country itself is the land of rugby.

So when you’re a kid, you always dream of the All Blacks – it’s still a mystical team, with the haka, and all the rugby culture in New Zealand.

In fact, a few current players have said how much they regret not being able to tour New Zealand, because of the new protocols meant to protect top French players today: Antoine Dupont, Romain Ntamack, Mathieu Jalibert… star players who have never had the opportunity of touring New Zealand.

It’s a shame, because even if it is always tough to tour New Zealand after a long season here, it is still something a French player should experience. I was lucky enough to tour New Zealand twice, and it’s something I’ll never forget.

Especially as in 2009, you beat the All Blacks in the first test in Dunedin…?

Absolutely, it was my first time in New Zealand, first match and we won! (27-22). From memory no French team had won there since 1994 – in fact Emile N’tamack who was ourbacks’ coach in 2009 had played in that 1994 tour.

That was the last French team to have won in NZ, and we won not only the first test, but also the Gallaher Trophy, because although the Blacks won the 2nd test, we won the series with a better points difference!

So that was a great memory. Especially as the Dunedin crowd are pretty hard-core – we did a lap of honour at the end of the match, and the public was pretty hostile, throwing beer and other things at us. Despite that, it remains a great memory.

The French have shown in the past their ability to beat the All Blacks in key games – the 1994 tour, 1999, 2007, the last three games in Paris…

It’s true, people often say we French have the ability to beat the All Blacks in high stakes games, and I think this has been highlighted by the last three games, with the current generation of players and the consistency in their performances. In the past, the French XV was guilty of achieving great feats but not being able to follow up with any consistency.

What does it take to beat them?

Playing our French brand of unstructured rugby can sometimes upset the All Blacks. Because, in spite of appearances, the All Blacks are always a very structured team, very pragmatic, and they are more used to playing against other Anglo-Saxon teams.

Australia, South Africa, England, Ireland all play more or less the same way. But we French, and I would say the Latin countries, with Argentina and even Italy, play a more free-flowing game, a less structured game.

It’s a style which is difficult to work on in training, which is perhaps why the famous French victories against the All Blacks have all come from the spark of madness in our game that the New Zealanders are not used to dealing with.

Perhaps not so much in the RWC quarter-final in 2007, but the historic French victories have all come from playing free-flowing, unstructured, running rugby, with a touch of madness. Because the All Blacks are not used to playing against teams like that.

So you have to break up the game to beat them?

Exactly. You have to surprise them. If you stick to your systems, stick to your game plan, against a team like New Zealand you have little chance of upsetting them. But if you think and play outside the box, create a little madness, the All Blacks are not at ease with this kind of unstructured play. And often, that is how you can beat them.

Are the All Blacks as dominant as they used to be? Have they fallen, or have other countries caught up?

I think it’s a bit of both. Partly it’s a generational problem- their current squad, although full of talented players, is perhaps not quite as strong as previous generations. But let’s not forget that they are world vice-champions, and when it comes down to it, the All Blacks will always be tough to beat.

On the other hand, French rugby has undeniably progressed, thanks to the new systems put in place over the past few years. The national team is now the top priority, the FFR has at last given itself the means to compete at the top level in international rugby, and when you add this to a generation of exceptional talents, the gap between the All Blacks and France has narrowed. 

We have always had great players in the French XV, but very rarely has the national team been the top priority. But this is no longer the case, and this is why France can now compete with the very best and even become a reference in world rugby.

You were part of the 2011 World Cup squad which nearly won the tournament against the odds - what was the difference in the final?

It is a bit peculiar. For me, over the whole competition New Zealand deserved to be World Champions. For us, it was almost a miracle to be in the final – we lost two pool games, to New Zealand and Tonga. So we miraculously got through to the quarters.

We won the quarter final against a really average English team, then the semi-final by one point against Wales who lost Warburton to a red card…Even that was a miracle, because I don’t even know that we deserved to win that game.

So we made it to the final, and of all our games in the World Cup, that was the one we most deserved to win. It’s not my style to criticise, (and I wasn’t in the matchday 23) but it’s still a bad memory.

I have never watched that game, because…even today it still feels wrong. Even though, over the competition the All Blacks thoroughly deserved their title, this was a World Cup, with one-off games in the final round.

And in that final, we were not refereed fairly, and France should have won that game. That’s not what happened. Ironically was the only game in the World Cup where we did everything we needed to win, and we didn’t!

Four years later however, things were a little different in the quarter-final against the All Blacks in Cardiff?

After 2011, we couldn’t see the forest for the trees. Because of that result in the RWC final, we thought we were going in the right direction, that we had talent to burn. But that was our mistake – taking the competition as a whole in 2011 we did not deserve to be in the final.

We lost two pool games, we were very average in the quarters and semis, and when we had the opportunity to be World Champions, we certainly deserved to win the final. But, in terms of competing regularly at the top international level, the 2011 campaign did not help us.

On the contrary. We should have gone back to the drawing board, and created a system which made the French XV a priority.

Philippe Saint-André as coach repeatedly demanded more access to his players, better management of their recovery and game time and their seasons, but it was refused. So up until 2015 the French XV continued to function as it always had.

You were on the pitch in Cardiff. What was that like, losing 62-13 to the All Blacks?

It was a huge slap in the face. Shipping 60 points in a World Cup quarter-final, we were ridiculous and it was a very unpleasant experience.

A lot of mixed feelings, but above all a feeling of shame. We were the ones on the pitch, so we were 100% responsible for what happened…But, maybe that defeat enabled French rugby to start asking the right questions about the place of the national XV in our game.

Something had to be done to avoid a similar humiliation in the future.

So, what has changed for France since 2015? What has been done to allow les Bleus to be more competitive?

Little by little things started to change. Allowing the French XV to prepare better for international matches, and tournaments such as the Six Nations or the World Cup. I played in 3 World Cups, and in 2019 it was clear we had entered a new era.

So, when Fabien Galthié took over after 2019, he was the first coach who ever had the sort of access to his players that his predecessors had been asking for years.

Now everything has been done to provide the best preparation possible for the French XV,  and I think we can see that it is beginning  to bear fruit. We have moved into the Top 5 in the world, and even for a brief time, managed to be No 1.

How much credit should Fabien Galthié take, or has it been a combined effort from the union?

There is no doubt Fabien is a great coach. But he has means at his disposal that no other coach has had before him. It’s difficult to compare, because previously no other coach had so many players made available, so much recovery time for his players before international weekends.

I remember even in my time, we would play for our club on Saturday, play for France next Saturday then head straight back to our clubs.

Marc Lièvremont as coach only ever had 23 players to work with, Fabien Galthié gets 42 to prepare every match.

So it’s very difficult to compare. It is not just the success of Fabien Galthié, it is the success of French Rugby in general, and the fact that at last they have taken steps to allow the French XV to compete at the highest level.

What lessons can other countries learn from the French revival?

Player development. It has become a priority in France, and we have seen the results with the U20 team. Introducing quotas for locally developed players has also had an effect. There are fewer foreign players in the Top 14, so the quality of local French talent has improved.

So, if you put the effort into developing young talent rather than looking for a foreign import, it pays off in the end. And strangely enough the Top 14 has continued to grow, and French rugby in general has moved forward.

Rugby is thriving in France, with full stadiums in the Top 14, massive TV deals - how can Super Rugby replicate this?

I think historically it is connected to our clubs. In France the public has a strong connection with the local clubs, and the culture of our club championship over more than a century.

In France, the ‘Bouclier de Brennus’ (Brennus Shield) has an almost mystical quality – I think everyone envies our competition. In the Southern Hemisphere there is not the same connection with the clubs, plus historically the national team is more important.

The club's connection with the public has become even stronger with the necessity of developing young talent and people can identify more and more with their local club.

What are your predictions for this summer’s series in NZ?

It’s difficult to say because it’s an inexperienced team, and we are at the end of a long season against New Zealand players who have far less game time. But I remember the last tour to Australia in 2021, we went with a so-called B or C team, and in the end we could have won all 3 tests.

No doubt it will be more difficult in New Zealand, but there are a lot of talented players in this side, and they have youth and enthusiasm on their side. So they could create an upset – I am not sure they can win three tests against the All Blacks, but I think it will be close, and France will win one, or possibly two.

What do you make of so many uncapped players in Fabien Galthie’s squad?

It’s often the case these days, so it’s not a surprise. Fabien said that he would not be taking key players who had had a tough season in Top 14 and Champions Cup. It gives an opportunity for young players to put their hands up, and Fabien to see the talent at his disposal going forward to the next World Cup.

Who do you expect to shine and break through?

Nobody in particular. In fact I would say since Fabien took over, it is the team work, the collective strength, which had made the difference. We saw that last week in the friendly game against England at Twickenham.

So, the key will be in Fabien creating a real team spirit which will enable them to compete with the All Blacks.

In comparison, the All Blacks have picked a really experienced squad for the series - who are their key threats?

With the All Blacks, the key threats can be everywhere. But there is one player who brings them a lot of confidence – and that is Ardie Savea. He’s going to Japan so I am sure he will want to sign off on a high note.

And after the last 3 losses against France, he will be super motivated to have a successful tour. I think the Blacks will try to play a high paced game and Ardie Savea is the perfect incarnation of that.

What do you make of Ardie Savea - is he still the best in the world?

Yes. Yes. For me he is the most complete loose forward in world rugby. He brings explosiveness, aggressiveness, he has a huge presence and there are very few players who have a similar work rate, and who can also win key moments that make a difference in the game.

How does he compare to Caelan Doris?

No, I think Savea is more explosive, and has a greater capacity of producing individual moments of brilliance. Doris is also mobile and can inject pace into the game, but doesn’t have the magical quality of Savea.

The Lions are on Tour in Australia- what is your view on the history and should France play against them?

Oh yes, I would love to see the Lions play against France ! Having spent a year at Northampton, I understand the importance the Lions have for British and Irish players. For them it’s the Holy Grail of rugby, winning a cap for the Lions is like the consecration of their career, and it holds supreme importance for them.

It is the only team of its kind, it’s once every four years, anyone interested in rugby the Lions is always keen to follow their tours, and this year is no exception.

So obviously I would love to see them play one day against France. And why not a tour in France? I think that would be magic. Although it’s hard to see how it could fit into the international calendar.

There would be incredible public interest in France, and I don’t know if it is because of the French team’s performance in recent years, but it seems that more and more people are talking about a possible game against the Lions. It would be fantastic!

Your old club Northampton has lots of Lions representation, who stands out for you? And are you surprised that the club has developed so much international talent?

No, I am not at all surprised. I only spent a year there, but I saw how important player development and the academy was for Northampton. At the time, the academy had Alex Mitchell, George Furbank, Lewis Ludlam, a whole list of players who have gone on to top teams.

Henry Pollock comes from the Academy, as does Tommy Freeman. It’s clear that their player development is bearing fruit, and the results for Northampton speak for themselves.

Even looking at players like Courtney Lawes, Dylan Hartley or Ben Foden, you get the feeling that players who come to Northampton want to stay there, want to contribute long term. It just proves that when the team spirit is strong, it opens doors for players to claim a jersey for England, or even the Lions.

What words of advice would you have for Henry Pollock?

To continue playing well, but to be a bit careful with his attitude. For the moment, everything is going well for him, so fair enough; he is playing well, and he has made it into the Lions. But watch out!

There has been a lot of talk about his attitude, and when you are young it can be easy to fall into that trap. You have a great season; you are on top of the world, but next season people will be gunning for you, and the season after that.

So you have to put even more effort into playing well. Especially when you have the provocative attitude he has – people will be gunning for him even more than usual, whether it is from the English clubs in the Premiership or in the Champions Cup, or at international level.

Yes, he is very talented, but I have rarely seen a young player with such a provocative spirit which is off the charts. Ok you can have an ego, you can be self-assured, but for me it's borderline and it’s not very rugby. And I know it is not appreciated.

No doubt he couldn’t give a damn, and it has helped him grow and mature as a player? But if I had any advice to give him it would be: keep your confidence and self-assurance, it’s great. Don’t lower your head, because you’re 20 and it is not a reason to lower your head.

But to retain a bit of humility. A bit of humility never did any harm, great champions are usually remarkable for their great humility. But at this stage it is not part of his DNA. Perhaps that is his strength, but I am not convinced that it will help him out in the long term.

Did you play with Alex Mitchell? Can he start for the Lions ahead of Jamison Gibson-Park?

Maybe. Gibson-Park is a serious contender. It will depend on the type of game the Lions want to play. If they want to play a strategic game plan, perhaps Mitchell can start. But if they want to play with a bit more movement and creativity, it will be difficult for him to be picked ahead of Gibson-Park.

What are your memories of playing in England - how would you improve English rugby?

I have great memories of my time in England. I think it was my most consistent and best year in terms of performance. Because everything is done to make it easier for the players to perform.

If the same conditions existed in France, in terms of back-room staff, preparation, recovery, individual programmes, the results would be spectacular. But at the same time, perhaps it wouldn’t work with the French character and culture.

As for what English rugby could do to improve, I’m not in a position to say. I don’t understand why English rugby is going through this economic and structural crisis. Is it because of Brexit and political choices which have had an impact on the economy?

It’s proof that whether it’s in France, England or around the world, the economic equilibrium of Rugby is very fragile, so the slightest grain of sand can put a whole structure at risk. And in France, we are not yet out of the woods. Rugby here currently benefits from private benefactors, but if one day they change their minds, then we will also be in trouble.